Money and Governance: May 20

Thanks for the great note taking by Michal Also AMAAAAAZING Miro board, check it out!

Money Power

Creation of a board for visual as well as all other materials for the calls:

We can edit it and add comments asynchronously throughout the week.



The calls started after the dGov Council, but the people from the Council are not participating much. What can we do about it? Can we find a better “home”? Commons Stack has dished praise and wants to co-brand/co-sponsor. How to go about it.

Commons Stack – “Praise” reward system (incentive system)

Today’s topic — Money + governance:

[Thomas ]

At a company, money is in there implicitly and explicitly. If it’s volunteer people pay for volunteerism.

If it’s a collective anyone cares about money is always near the surface.

From Michal to Everyone: 04:24 PM

From my point of view mainly, using governance to grow: “minimum viable economies”, especially in the context of complementary currencies + tying ownership of the network with contribution to the network

Sid@Thomas —

  • Reputation economies
    • Not ONLY money, also Reputation as currency
  • Exclusion or inclusion pressures, mainly
  • “Kripashna” (?) meditation
  • great example of self-organization

  • runs on gift economy

  • examples of volunteering movements in India, etc.

  • joy of giving festival


  • Toastmasters is also decentralized


  • Current “Cs” — in Latin “see the flow”
    • “From intangible to tangible”
    • Shows what flows under the surface
    • “We always thought of currencies as something tangible, fungible”

Rules for Reputational currencies

DAA - Decentralized Autonomous Association, // A Swiss structure


  • Interesting structure
  • A Synagogue
    • Self-Run for 35 years
    • Membership dues
    • Everyone pays the same
    • You can donate more
    • Never enough money
    • Nobody paid, except for the secretary
    • Everything was fully transparent
  • Great things
    • No positions
    • No money-earning
    • Never enough money
    • “NOTHING to get corrupted”


  • “Tokenocracy” (?)
    • “Labour capital as a form of currency”
    • Worrying in some ways
      • Old governance with new tokens


  • Observing
    • Graphene (DPoS)
    • STEEM
    • BitShares
  • “Tyranny”



  • Was

Notes from Zoom:

I’m picking up on another distinction, between small scale collectives where all players know each other, and large scale (Hayek’s “extended order”)

There’s psychological research indicating that when people experience power or think of themselves as powerful, it suppresses empathy


  • Money is a symbol, not only a thing
  • Moving or using it shows power
  • “Power corrupts people”
    • How to make sure we don’t get corrupted with… power, money, etc.


  • In organizations we also project “power”
  • “In [decentralized] organizations and power we ‘validate’ our power”


  • “To what extent do we collaborate”
  • Cultural aspects are very improtant


  • Caught up on “Incorruptible systems”
    • Should we design systems to be incorruptible?
    • Design to stop bad actors and actions?
    • Or … to encourage good behavior?
  • From Gus’ comment
    • What is bad about “old” governance?
    • “Tyranny of the whales”
    • Money rules the system vs. should it be…
      • Merit?
      • Or stakeholders who are impacted?


In the context of “governance”, “corruption” would be taking a decision in your own interest rather than in the interest of the people who you are supposed to be governing/or who have the money involved.

There were studies that people higher up in the organization tended to be more likely to take advantage of free candies.


  • Most successful organizations, long-term have a lot of individuals with strong capacities to resist “corruption” (i.e. “inner capacity” - strong moral spine + resistance to corruption, vs. “outer capacity” depended on the system)
    • There’s no real way to “quantify” that
    • [Grace] almost impossible to know in advance how you’d behave


  • Interesting dynamics on people getting into positions of power
    • Some people choosing positions where it’s easy to get bribes
    • Creating inner circles, and cliques
  • There’s also this “unintentional” corruption
    • The system can (negatively) affect people’s “internal capacity” negatively and make them less-virtuous
      • Relying on everything you did before you got elected, is not a great system since you can change
      • The only way to create a perfect system
        • Llamas — “brainwashed” to be incorruptible from when they’re 3
        • The downside, the system is very brittle, since it can’t handle violence


  • Do we know of good examples of systems with money?
    • The market
      • Is it working ok, because it’s impersonal?

  • Some systems with clear purpose - e.g. companies, generating money for shareholders, work well, or according with purpose
    • “Virtue in, virtue out, garbage in, garbage out” [Martin]


  • Maybe, we should ask two questions?

    • “Governance with money”
    • “Governance and the economy”
  • “Future of the economy is based on relationship, not ownership”

  • Money is a tool

  • (?) note about demurrage


  • IP property rights, modelling those, and market creation
    • Create lumps of info
    • Put those on a market
    • Attach value to those

Future topic: From centralized to decentralized, what would a process look like?

Future: subtopics of Money and Power.

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