Ethics and Governance: May 13, 2020

We started with a display by Lauren and friends about how to better create “artifacts” and an amazing miro board that has created some wonderful review materials to summarize all the past talks. We began taking turns as facilitators.

Notes by Grace this week:

Ethics and Governance

Lauren is facilitator this week.

First part we will learn some new techniques for sense-making and creating better artifacts for our calls. Second part we will go into the topic: Ethics and governance.

From Lauren Nignon to Everyone: 04:03 PM

MIro board, with no sign-in required:

From Me to Everyone: 04:07 PM

Also-- something that isn’t a talent but you want to practice it on us, your guinea pigs.

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:08 PM peeragogy handbook w/ live meetings roles/ patterns

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:20 PM

Lauren nignon: “‘Using better intelligence to decrease the amount of decisions needed to make together’ -> more sophisticated voting”

grace: “more complex and natural and seamless ways of making decisions”

‘voting is an opaque seam’… no way of seeing how/ when that happens

Lauren: To summarize, we have been working in an area of looking at centralization versus decentralization and the balance between them. Rather than going for one extreme, we are looking at the continuum among them.

Co-risking: a good topic for the future.

‘voting is an opaque seam’… no way of seeing how/ when that happens

“co-risking” - LMN

From Martin Dow to Everyone: 04:21 PM

@grace like sluice gates are to flow?

From Me to Everyone: 04:22 PM

More like a toll booth where you have to throw in coins instead of just having a thing that photographs your license plate so you don’t have to slow down.

My favorite Hedayat quote: “I love it. It is BEAUTIFUL”

Using tagging instead of colors would allow search and filter, and we ran out of colors

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:24 PM

@grace: hard to take notes and pay attention at the same time

Lauren: for me it’s the opposite. I can listen more.\

grace - no one has done live interpretation at the same time?

[I don’t agree -> cf. e.g. Kelvy Bird @ Presencing Institute]

Grace: The conversation is also a living thing in and of itself. When I interpret or take notes, it is one kind of deep listening. When I am participating in a way where I build on what others are saying, it’s an emergent, living conversation.

Charles @grace - fascinating your internal shifting experience would have “nothing to do with the information being transmitted” ?!!

Thomas: Peter Drucker, some people are oriented to be reader-writers, and some people are more kinesthetic. I’m more of a reader-writer. If i’m not taking notes it just flows through me and it’s gone.

Hedayat: You have created pieces of a puzzle. Can you share your whole mind. Is this one step of a big picture. What is the big picture.

Lauren: yes, this is just some other meetings I’ve been in where I’m taking notes in new ways.

From Me to Everyone: 04:32 PM

@charles, I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s “nothing” to do with it, but it’s a totally different quality of something. Like, as a group or culture, we aren’t just a collection of all of our talents

From Robert Best to Everyone: 04:32 PM

everything is interpretation?

From Me to Everyone: 04:32 PM

That has some truth to it.

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:34 PM

@grace, as you stated,

“shifting within me in a living way, nothing to do w/ the information being transmitted” - anyway I understand :slight_smile:

Roles for participants in real-time meetings

  • Searchers: search the web for references mentioned during the session and other resources relevant to the discussion, and publish the URLs in the text chat
  • Contextualizers: add two or three sentences of contextual description for each URL
  • Summarizers: note main points made through text chat.
  • Lexicographers: identify and collaboratively define words and phrases on a wiki page.
  • Mappers: keep track of top level and secondary level categories and help the group mindmapping exercise at the end of the session.
  • Curators: compile the summaries, links to the lexicon and mindmaps, contextualized resources, on a single wiki page.
  • Emergent Agendas: using the whiteboard for anonymous nomination and preference polling for agenda items, with voice, video, and text-chat channels for discussing nominations, a group can quickly set its own agenda for the real-time session.

From Robert Best to Everyone: 04:41 PM

-20s charles says timestamping in real-time is useful

From michael linton to Everyone: 04:43 PM

soaking soaking - hope it’s not a drag?

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:44 PM

^^ drag on brother

From Martin Dow to Everyone: 04:44 PM

@pratyush A fellow marinator here, today

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:45 PM

healthcare -> fundamentally based on food

From Robert Best to Everyone: 04:46 PM


Move to Ethics:

Grace: I’m interested in what the ethical obligations and boundaries and obligations are. So if you are a government, are you ethically required to provide healthcare? What about food. In the current system we seem to agree that it is the obligation to

Thomas: Max Faber: Whatever group has a monopoly on use of force (levy taxes, enforce wars)

What is right and wrong use of force?

For example, we have this idea that there are gender roles, if we want to enforce that as a collective, we could do that as a majority.

Bill: Declaration of Independence: the founders tried to come up with universal rights: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There are many ways to interpret that. Healthcare vs. providing food. Government has some obligation to provide people a way to live. It might be on one extreme: just not taking away people’s food (or that others take it away) to the other extreme of providing actual food.

Thomas: I have the right to not be murdered, and that limitless if I give Bill the right not to be killed, that is limitless. (negative rights)

Charles: Where do negative rights come in now especially in the martial law-- pandemic crisis. Not explicit, at least de-facto martial law

Thomas: Do I have the right to not be infected? Do I have the right through my government to have people not gather people in large numbers

Charles: I’m in Zurich. My daughters went back to school. People are having parties on the roof. It’s not cool. I don’t agree with the government.

Thomas: They’re having a greatly elevated level of risk that you can’t opt out of.

Charles: I’m staying in and not seeing my kids. It’s tough. The point is-- where does the law fit in here? Potentially or actually.

Thomas: Whatever the majority thinks is right, they get to wield the long arm of the state.

Charles: I am not catching this thing, sorry. Period.

Thomas: If they take a further step and drag you out and force you to get it, that’s a further step.

Bill: I was a practicing attorney. Role of law in society. Law is just the codification of societal norms. Both those the majority has decided and to some extent the ones the majority has decided that they want to have to keep the minority from rising up to overthrow them. It can be bound in terms of where the social contract where individuals have decided to form their own relationships.

Charles: Culture is the backdrop for social culture and social norms. I’m an American and I’m here in Switzerland and yet there’s a culture that in particular in regard to the pandemic. There’s no real hard obligation. There’s a confidence in the top levels as well as the individualism and desire to be social. A week ago there was a protest in my neighborhood: virus fraud.

From Robert Best to Everyone: 04:46 PM


From Martin Dow to Everyone: 04:48 PM

martination in this local sentence is the art and practice of not finishing a sentence

** sentence #1 -> context

From charles blass to Everyone: 04:49 PM

another variation of role for curator, cf. @michael linton yesterday on metacaugs


From Thomas Cox to Everyone: 04:54 PM

Ethics or moral philosophy is a branch of philosophy that “involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong behavior.” The field of ethics, along with aesthetics, concerns matters of value, and thus comprises the branch of philosophy called axiology.Wikipedia

Grace: Within context of health, the Swedes are saying that it definitely affects long-term health

Thomas: Opioid growth and suicide is growing in these areas where the job market is most hit-- so people are dying.

Grace: what are other ethical issues? For example what about food? In my siste

Thomas: Within proper power of government, the constitution says that you can’t force religion.

Charles: We know the kind of statements made on the other side.

Thomas: What is the scope of governance?

Hedayat: Question: Have you heard about the

From michael linton to Everyone: 05:01 PM

us religion is the fed reserve / irs = inquisition

From charles blass to Everyone: 05:03 PM

event happened yesterday, from swiss based global ethics org

From Thomas Cox to Everyone: 05:04 PM


From Robert Best to Everyone: 05:05 PM

This is a fun show that dives into this trolley problem

From Martin Dow to Everyone: 05:07 PM

I wanted to know whether the train system was on smart contact

From charles blass to Everyone: 05:08 PM

^^ smart contract = locked on-track

From michael linton to Everyone: 05:09 PM

like Elon?

Hedayat: The train example, people try to take the handle to hurt fewer people, but if the two are my wife and father, then I would convince myself that I should not take a hand to kill my wife… that I don’t have to take an action. Like in the Coronavirus, some people want to shut down everything and some people want to go back to work, so the perspective of the individual and the government are different, who has the rights?

Charles: There’s a lot more complexity and fine-grain resolution. This kind of binary polarized system is symptomatic. It’s too easy to do and it’s like a virus in and of itself. It doesn’t just split into two forks. There’s so much complexity and dynamics. It’s inconceivable.

Martin: That might have value as far as switching of track. Isn’t that actually what happens? Husband and wife can have a conversation with action and decision and sense of ethics and they can bubble up through family groups and geographically local circles. At some level we are talking about nation states. I find it difficult to think about global statements at all those levels. It’s down to contex. There’s a relationship up that hierarchy. It’s not necessarily a difficult thing… There is still value in the trollyollogy.

From Robert Best to Everyone: 05:13 PM

actually, the trolley problem with the lever maybe fits perfectly then with the AI, which I jokingly said before… given the AIs for now are digital systems… i.e. many binaries build on top of each other

From charles blass to Everyone: 05:15 PM

relevant initiative/ org/ book

simultaneous policy- - john Bunzl in u.k.

Pratuyush: From a design perspective. Possibility of discussing from a design lens: How did we arrive at that point in the first place. Could we have avoided landing in that situation? One of the things that is alive now is the choice that governments are making between health, security and data privacy. Launching apps that are doing real-time surveillance. That data will stay on the servers and be used in many ways. While we are thinking about the choice, most people are going with I am happy to compromise on privacy for health security. But why do we have systems where we have to make horrible choices? Can we design the system in ways that we do nto have to make horrible choices. There’s a lot of hunger coming up during the pandemic. Do we let people die of the virus or we do let them die of hunger or poverty. That is another example

Michael: my sense is that usually we try to clean up afterwards. The train went down the wrong track and then we try to see what happened. I am skeptical of presumptive ethcis. All of our life happens after we did it. I’m driving my car looking in the rearview mirror.

Thomas: Michael’s idea that we live more reflectively that prospectively… Roman idea that we are all walking backwards into the future. That came home as I was listening.

Charles: Question.

Michael: Noticing that roles can enhance or impede work.

I like the idea of automation rather than keyboarding.

Charles: It’s partly a personal style or dance that each of us does.